AUS: Your Comments 4

Here are some of the responses I've received to the information on this page. I've left them as is, except for a) removing the names to protect privacy, and b) reformatting them to fit the screen better.

This is a long file…I suggest downloading it to your computer and reading it off-line.

great page, i've been hounded by the amoids on numerous occasions!!!

Dear Sid,

I'm not going to try to convince you or slam you about your web page, but what makes you think that you are saving these people from making a mistake? Who made you judge & jury? Most of the people who wrote back claimed to be in for a few years, then decided it just doesnt work. Well, they are the ones who did not have enough faith in themselves to do it. The statistics that you had about success was a real eye opener for me. If I can possibly be that one out of a thousand that makes it to direct distributor or above, that would still be better odds than anything else out there. Most of us cant even imagine making the kind of money just a direct makes. As far as the "systems" go, I am part of WWDB. I dont personally approve of all the methods involved in our program, but I'm still going to do what I have to do to succed. Yes, it does become a cult if you allow someone to control your life. Also, the lawsuit againt Britt/Yeager & Amway is full of it. Let me guess, the plaintiffs are asking for millions against them. Once again its the victim syndrome. If you dont get rich might as well take someone elses riches right? Everybody need to take care of their own life and if the "business" isnt part of yours, just keep quiet please.

Schwartzy, what in the world did Amway do to you? This is the most unbelievable disortation against a group or company I have ever seen on the Net. Admire your tenacity.

My son sells Amway. Should I do an intervention?

Dear Sydney,

You and others who have positively responded to your web site are confusing the Amway business and people in the Amway business. It is entirely possible that whoever introduced you and others to the Amway business may have mislead or confused you, either purposefully or unknowingly. Just because there are bad dentists doesn't mean I'll never get a cavity filled again. For example, one email writer quoted a voice mail about "recruiting". That's obviously deceptive and that distributor should be set straight. The Amway corporation specifically discourages that kind of misleading hype.

You say Britt et. al. concealed the fact that the average Amway distributor only makes $65.00 a month. Yet, on the Amway Business and Marketing Plan (SA- 4400), Amway's official FTC-approved disclosure, which is REQUIRED to be given to all prospective distributors, it says in big bold print on the bottom of every page EXACTLY that. If you did not receive an SA-4400, then that again was a mistake on your sponsor's part. It's not the business' fault that you did not succeed at it.

And what does it take to be an average distributor and make $65/month? As I don't have an SA-4400 handy, let me see if I can paraphrase it: An average distributor during the survey period attempted to make a retail sale, attended a meeting, got a check in the mail, or shared the business with one other person. In other words, they didn't do anything at all. And they STILL made $65! In other words, in two months they earned back the cost of buying the sales and marketing kit!

Sure there are costs in building a business. You pay tens of thousands for a small franchise, like Subway, or millions for a McDonalds. Those costs are clear and completely inaccessable to 98% of us. I probably spend $100 a month on sales tools, and if I never made a dime in the business, I'd cheerfully keep on spending it because of the association I'm able to make with other successfull, positive people. But instead I buy for myself and save some, using the difference to pay for most of the tools. In any case, because of what I've learned about myself and business, I've increased my job (sorry, didn't mean to cuss) income by nearly 50% over the past 18 months. So I'd say the tools have more than paid for themselves.

Eighty-eight percent of Amway distributors never show the business to anyone else. The other 12% is your competition. I don't care if the percentage of successful, which I define as those making enough money to quit their job-- (ooops, there I go swearing again)--I don't care if the percentage of successful distributors is only 1/10th of one percent of all Amway distributors. It's still better odds than working in corporate America, which is ready to flush you the nanosecond they don't need you. Corporate America laid off 500,000 people last year. AT& T will lay off 40,000 in the next three years. And on and on.

Amway has been investigated by the best of them, including the government, which took five years and millions of our taxpayer dollars to attempt to coerce Amway into changing how it does what it does so incredibly well. And the judge completely vindicated the company. (See http://www.primenet.com/~magrath/amway.html for more complete info.)

I ask anyone who says Amway doesn't work: Did you work it? Did you show the business one to two times a week for a year? Did you attend meetings with other distriburtors regularly, month in, month out? Did you read every day and educate your broke mind and spirit? Or did you give it a feeble-hearted attempt, find it wasn't easy, whimp out in the first year, and whine about how "it doesn't work" to your co-workers and other broke friends? (And then sue your upline…?)

To paraphrase a former vice president, there are many "nattering nabobs of negativism" out there. Who you associate with proves what you believe. Do you hang out with winners or losers? And if you don't know which is which, then you've got a place to start.

So, what are you doing now, Sydney? Are you better off than before you didn't start building your Amway business?

When you post this to your web page, you don't have to remove my email address to protect me. I'll stand behind my words.

Brian Phelps

btphelps@officeiq.com

I applaud your efforts to provide valid information to consumers.

Question #1)

What are you offering?

Question #2)

Are you qualified to teach others financial freedom? (i.e. being financially free yourself, no job…)

Question #3)

Did anyone become financially free as a direct result of your ideas?

I have always found that it is better to listen to people who have what I want because they can show me how to get it…

What are you offering???

How does it feel to be one of the most reviled and appreciated information sponsors on the internet?

I have perused the multi-level marketing newsgroups periodically since my first exposure to Steve Butterfield's book and your material last year. Maybe someday I'll come out of the closet and contribute my own experiences (a close relative is at the 1.5 year point in their "career").

I was wondering if you had ever collected interesting comments made on newsgroups? It's not a recommendation because it would be a lot of work, though I think I remember seeing some newsgroup "quotes" in your webpage.

I wish I had saved one brief one I saw last Fall. It was in response to an especially vitriolic attack on I Am The Way and it read something like this: "You shouldn't talk about Amway like that when you don't know about it". As a witty response it wasn't much but I was amused to see it was from somebody named "dexter@amway.com"!!! Ha!!!

I wonder if billionaires have to type their own e-mail?

I've seen a few critical mails lately in which pro-Amwaynians are asking for details on your background. A recent one "accused" you of being a house-husband. (So what's wrong with house husbands?) I guess they want to know why you seem to have made it a mission to apprise the public of the danger out there. I'm not enquiring, myself, but have you posted something on your webpage that gives some insight into your background and interest in this matter? If not, that's fine.

P.S. I'm a passive anti-Amwaynian, compared to you, but on several occasions I have sent out an e-mail listing a dozen relevant URLs. Whenever I see somebody asking "Can anybody tell me about 'Amway'?" I just fire it off Just my little contribution to denying a billion dollars to the Corp (through exponential duplication of stinking thinking)!

I would like to make one thing clear. I looked at Amway a few years ago and said it was not for me. But I stayed friends with the person who contacted me.

Here we are three years later I am now active in Amway and my friend who contacted me is retired at 32 years old after 3 1/2 years.

You tell me you can do that in a regular J.O.B. I don't think so.

Get it Right. DO it for yourself and your FREEDOM.

Dear Mr Schwartz:

I visited your Web site and could not agree more on the information about Amway.

Like many other victims, I spent time, money and effort to attend Amway functions which amounted to nothing. What is dispicable is that the Amway "friends" I had knew I was a "starving" college student; and yet they encouraged me to spend money to attend their functions and "learn about the business". By the time I was done, I was $600 poorer from travel expenses, function tickets and tapes. Luckily, I fell short of buying an Amway kit, so today I am not connected with that "cult".

The Amway people I am talking about are those from the Dexter Yager group. They are all hugs, kisses and full of praise for God, but behind you, they want your money. I heard Dexter Yager speak, and in my opinion, he is a bigot and like a neo-Nazi.

In recent months, I have been having doubts about the concept of network marketing. I think it is just a cover up for pyramid scams. Every network marketing company I have come across, from Amway to NuSkin seem to be emphasizing the following:

1) There has been a "betrayal" by corporate America of the American dream. You need to get into business for yourself.

2) You need to get into "the business" to achieve your dreams of financial independence for yourself and your family.

3) The "business" is the most dynamic wealth creation system ever known--take advantage of this "window of opportunity in time" before it closes.

4) To succeed, you need to "help" others; which means sponsorship and supporting your upline with your business volume. Your upline will in turn pass along their wisdom, credibility and time to help you build your business.

5) You cannot sell a product if you do not believe in it. Therefore, you MUST buy the product yourself.

6) Don't miss out on the "information superhighway". I could go on and on. Mr. Schwartz, I'm sure you are familiar with these "lines". Perhaps you can add a section to your Web page dealing with these sales pitches, so that people know what they are getting into.

Am I correct in saying that network marketing is a scam? If it is so great, then why doesn't the marketing world endorse it? Why don't we all quit our jobs and become "distributors"?

Sir I just wish more plain folks had access to your information. Friends of ours are currently beginning in AMWAY, and asked my opinion. Knowing little, other than my Dad raised a very cautious son, I started looking for facts. Being a new user of the internet, I thought I'd give the internet a try at answering my questions. I not only found the answers my friends needed to make their future decisions about AMWAY, but I learned there really are folks like me who care, and want others to share their knowledge. Your Homepage is detailed, informative, and should save many alot of grief down the road. Keep up the "Great" work!

Sidney I just want to thank you for your work, what you have done it made me realize something I did not expect at all.

After reading your article (and digesting it for long time) I gave a printed copy of your work to my immediate upline asking for a comment, he gave the documents to his upline (two people above him) and after that I've decided to call this last guy for an answer concerning this material (especially the canadian fraud, and tools scam).

After only 20 minutes of conversation with his wife (he wasn't home) she was no longer able to answer to my questions, she was even questioning what I was saying, something like "I find hard to believe what you are saying" (the canadian fraud) "I don't know and I don't care about negative people" etc. etc. etc.

I just simply asked her one simple question, "prove me wrong, show me that this guy is posting a bunch of crap, we are three years working togheter" She hung up on me and that's the last time we spoke.

So far I did not find anyone who can intelligently question your material.

IMO Amway is a system that works, Dexter Yager (and downlines) and their "tools" business are the ones that makes the entire system higly questionable.

Please post my e-mail address if you wish, let's see if someone can argue with *fatcs* not *opinions* about what I've just said.

Regards

Giuseppe Davoli

peppeddu@postoffice.ptd.net

Functions, functions, functions. Tapes, books, tapes and more tapes. Need I say more.

We were on recommended tape which is a single tape one week and double the next. $6 per tape. Gets expensive!

Some of the tapes were OK. Mostly, they turned me off.

The functions cracked me up. Most people there were wannabies not gonabies. At the opens or second looks, I was embarassed to bring prospects to. Two reasons: 1) I thought the functions were to long. They need to get to the point. Talk to long and you loose me. 2) I wasn't trilled with the poople. Yes, some were very professional but most were average Joe Shmo or worse.

Mt wife said the other day that since we quit Amway, she feels less stressed.

I agree. It's great.

Thanks and keep in touch.

This was me:

> > I found your series of pages on Amway interesting. I'm still a
> > distributor, but merely to order products. We've got seven downline, but
> > they're just purchasing products too. No one is building.
>

And you responded:

> If you don't mind my asking, how much time and effort did it take you to
> recruit those seven?

Not at all, but like most Amway stories you've probably heard, it's never a straight forward story.

First of all, we were/are pretty good at recruiting -- at least as far as I could tell. My wife and I put together a pretty good sized list, which quite frankly our upline (not our sponsors, necessarily -- they're our best friends and never completely bought in) really wanted a shot at. You know the drill.

Set up home meetings, have your upline do the plan, drive hard with the followups, etc. etc. etc.

Our problem was that neither of us is particularly thrilled with prospecting.

The Network 21 system has great ways to approach (If the time was right and you could fit it into your schedlue . . .), and to our uplines, it was a mere matter of numbers. The problem was, to me, they were people I respected and liked. I could understand the cookie cutter approach, to a degree, but I wasn't sure that was what I wanted for people I knew and liked.

So I prospected selectively, much to the dismay of my upline. Several tried to attach themselves to us, and we frustrated them considerably. However, we did make leader's club within about six months, and got our seven downline within the first year. We probably had a close rate of about 50%. I don't doubt that I could likely go out and recruit another half a dozen in the next month if I *really* wanted to. But somehow the thought of getting back into that mess, I have to view, is a last resort.

The killer came about a year and a half ago, when a well meaning, but pretty stupid upline let him talk me into giving him my list to develop. He blew thru it like nothing, discarding a number of people I could have signed up -- but they were just names to be gotten off the list. He did it, big time. You've probably heard that before.

Is it worth it? I really don't know. To be honest, the books and tapes helped for about a year personally, since I was going thru a fairly tough time at work. They probably did change some of my views on management, and made me a better person at work. We're still in, and it is something I could do at a moment's notice if I wanted to. But not right now.

I do need to get back to an open meeting here in my area soon, just, if nothing else, to see what's gong on and to see how they react. I'm pretty smart, articulate, and handle myself well at those kind of functions. You know, what they like.

I do have a question. How sure are you about the tape/video thing? I didn't get far enough to have a feel about it. Network 21 is Dornan's organization, not Yagers, although Yager is all over our area.

It's real simple. I spent ten years working for someone else when I got in the Amway business. My wife worked downtown,my kids were in day care. Now the man who signs my paycheck at my job is in my down line, my wife is at home taking care of our children and the oldest boy is in private school. None of which would happen if I hadn't built our business. I have never been forced to buy anything and have been told several times not to put myself in a financial bind in the business.I don't know what to say about people saying they were forced to buy or do something-unless they are just weakminded-it makes me think of the person who does drugs or has sex "because everyone else is doing it".I guess this is the page for people who quit or have doubts about themselves to whine to.

I, too, am an Amway distributor. Your remarks with respect to their products are totally untrue. Even if I never signed another distributor, I would stick with Amway. The products are excellent and the cost is very reasonable. Because the products come in concentrated, I also have less packaging to throw away making Amway products a better choice for the environment as well. Yes, it takes time to build a business. Yes, you do need to invest a small amount of money to build the business. However, I can think of no business that offers the constant support of the Amway people. The seminars are not mandatory, nor are the tapes. However, they do provide motivation. The business does work, but only if you're willing to put in the time and effort necessary. If you don't have the business ability to make this work, don't knock the rest of us who do make it work on a day-to-day basis.

Thank you for your info on Amway.

I wish I had access to this kind of information two years ago when friends of ours became involved as 'evangelists' for their network. The rift betweem us and one of the couples and has sadly still not been healed, the other is OK.

Many thanks

Hey Sidney,

I wish I read the info in your web site before I joined. Every thing you wrote is true and to the point.

I feel that Amway is the largest crock of shit ever perpertrated on the public from the MD that gave up his lucridive practice to obtain a $700,000+ income per year by just signing up 6 people to all the others that give the average person false hope. How is this company able to get away with this are the judges also claiming that they are able to get away on these dream trips on dream yachts to special get away places - this is gross fraud.

Sidney,

I don't know who you are or what your beef with the business is, but I feel like I spend way to much time on administration (order processing, etc) and the I am beginning to resent the prosyletizing at all the "meetings." I am fortunate to have a GREAT upline which does not pressure me, but, I get tired of the TAPEs and FUNCTIONs. Seems to me we can buy our own stuff and get commisions without all the hoopla and music of religious revival meetings.

The AMAGRAM came our just this week decrying this type of behavior which I thought was a step in the right direction.

I am curious - are you researching the business? What's your interest?

Mr. Schwartz,

I have had so much fun reading your homepage. I knew very little about Amway before I stumbled across your page. Now I can't wait to be "shown the plan". How strange that so many people would fall for this. I think I'll stick with med. school instead of trying Amway. As if there's a question. I found the responses particularly funny. My boyfriend and I printed them up and spent a couple hours laughing at them last night. Good for you that you're warning people about this, I'm sure it's difficult to keep the site as nice as you do. Thank you.

Mr. schwartz,

It is quite evident that you have spent considerable time researching the Amway corporation. I am sure that your own record would reflect a man of perfect moral credentials and that you have never done anything wrong in your life.What opportunity have you given to someone lately to help better their lives? What makes a man so vindictive to spend so much time knocking something? No doubt that all other companies in the world have spotless records! Why don't you make it your life's ambition to investigate them all and die a bitter,cynical,old fart that nobody ever remembers much less cares about!

Dear sir please tell me what do you have to gain by seting this board up every body must have some sort gain for every thing thay do what is yours you have obviesly gone to a grait deal of truble. It's good to see the other side of the coin (Some one whith a defrent opinin keep it up

Dear Sydney,

Thank you for helping me be sure that I made the right decision. Please keep me up to date on any recent developments. Your "Amway-The Untold Truths" web page was extremely enlightening.

Sidney, thanks, I think, for this page.

I have been an Amway Distributor a total of four times, first time in 1975, then 1977, 1984, and finally in 1995/96. This time it is to stay. Earlier I didn't have the necessary maturity (I've always been very shy and unsociable --- distinct disadvantages in any marketing venture).

Anyway, I read as much of the class action suit against Britt/Yager/Amway and in my opinion it is wholly meritless. I do have somewhat of a paralegal background, so this is not an entirely amateur opinion. Each one of the various counts can be met quite handily by evidence that the defendants will be able to bring forward. In my further opinion the plaintiffs were unwilling to do what it took to get where they wanted to go, so now they are gold-digging instead. Merely that a suit is started does not mean that there is anything unethical going on (in one side or the other). But looking at this one it is obvious to me, at least, that the unethical conduct is on the side of the plaintiffs in the case. They found some folks with deep pockets, and hope that their targets will choose to settle rather than waste time beating it in court.

Your coverage of the Canadian tax fraud issue was apparently accurate, however, and though I never thought that Van Andel and DeVos walked on water, it is disappointing (in one sense) that they resorted to fraud to save some money.

The cult stuff is patently ridiculous. I'd be willing to entertain the notion that some people get wildly enthusiastic about something they perceive to be in their own self-interest, and perhaps do some unwise things. But cultism a la Jonestown, etc. Haven't seen it. I really think you ought to be taking what the Cult Awareness Network passes out with a very large grain of salt, too. This is the outfit that made a big hullaballo over the Branch Davidians, and so much of their stuff turned out to be malarkey that I would go outside and check for myself if they claimed the sky were blue.

I mean, at Waco CAN put forward as evidence of paramilitary activity the testimony of a blind man who had claimed to have taken part in guard duty and target practice, and seeing one time a child leaving Koresh's bedroom. Yep, legally blind, thrown out of Mount Carmel because he attempted to seize control of the Davidian's from Koresh. Real credible and objective. Also, CAN was largely responsible for the testimony of Kirry Jewel in front of Congress about the times that Koresh had molested her. Unfortunately, Miss Jewel was never present at Mt. Carmel during the time Koresh was supposed to have molested her. Talk about brainwashing and mind control!

The problem is, CAN has a vested interest in ensuring that there are cults, and is not above inventing them if they don't exist.

I'm glad to see you publishing some contrary opinions, at least, but I'm not sure this site is really serving any significant useful purpose.

My good friend & I are partners in this am scam. We have been partners since 1990 when I divorced my "upline" husband. At the time we were at the then profit sharing level - and speaking. He kept the "business" and I became the object of much hate/lies/innuendo. My good friend who was in my group, said, "Come on, get in this with me and we will show 'em!" Not knowing she and her family would them become the object of more scorn. We have so much documentation - we'd like to take this company to task for their discrimination. I appreciate your input!

Sidney, I'm a reporter for the **** Times, an English-language newspaper in ****. I've always had my doubts about this company. Some relatives of mine are involved and they're like fanatics about the subject. When Amway announced it's opening here, I knew I had to find some background. Your web page is excellent. I just have one question, what is your motivation for doing so much research on Amway?

Dear Sir,

We have been involved, not with the Amway Corp, but in a business for ourselves, but not by ourselves. The Amway Corp does many things exceptionally well. They handle, as you should well know, the money and the products. But, all of these things would be nothing without people. We really feel from our own experienced building our Amway business that we are in the business of building people and helping them achieve their dreams. We are not one to criticize what you have put on the internet.

Just as we are taught by the people closest to us, our upline, we believe in God, family and country. This country is the best country in the world and it is because of our freedom and free enterprise that we are both able to communicate with each other and with the world. After reading all of the sections that you have posted here, we have yet to find something that we were looking for…that is the real positive side of the Amway business and the Amway Corp. As you well know, the corporation did $6.3 billion in business last year. How many other companies make it a point to make people first? Amway makes many charitable contributions to everything from Easter Seals to helping with relief aid during natural disasters, not only in our own country but in countries all over the world. When it comes to the "System", we buy tapes and books, go to functions, attend open opportunity meetings, and try to follow the system, not only for the good of our business, but also to better ourselves in everything that we do. How many Fortune 500 companies give their top executives information on how to build a strong and profitable personal business? We would bet none, because they don't want their employees to get ahead and not be willing to do their work for them. Remember, the boss is always going to send their kids to the best schools, and have the nicest of everything including houses, cars, and vacations. Millions of people all over the world are without hope, and we feel that the Amway business is something that can bring them hope to not only bring them home to their families, but to help them achieve not only their personal goals, but to help others get hope and achieve their goals as well. The site did give interesting information, although it appeared to be very one-sided. We are not distributors that are going to use profane language and other unruly means to get our point across. That is not the true essence of an Amway distributor and that is not the true essence of Amway itself!

Do you have nothing better to do than to bash something you obviously have no idea about? I have been examining the AMWAY business for just over 2 years now, reading every aproach and article about it. I see you have published just about all the hate mail and negative you could possibly find about the business. What you dont understand, is that something good is not going to die just because some loser hasnt the brains to figure this out.. You must think pretty highly of yourself if you think that you can see the light, but yet the #1 finanical planner in the United States is completely fooled by the Amway scam. How about Forbes, you ever read it? Obviously not or you wouldnt say what you do. Amway has been rated the number one home business in the world by more than one account, but of course they're al full of shit right? You've probably heard this before… but do you really think that Ford, GM, Chrysler, all the rest of the motor companies, coke, and five hundred other companies would have anything to do with the business if it were a scam? Give your head a shake & Come out of your comma guy.

Yo SID!! What are you…some kind of ASSHOLE??!!! I've seen your snotty replies all over newsnet, including alt.health.arthritis! You MUST be sufferring the way you lash out at people.

hi there, i just read your home page. and i would like to say tank you for telling your side of the story. that's one thing i like about the net. people can tell it the way things really are. I was just about to go to a amway meeting… i'm still curious to go. just to find out on my own. it would be great if everybody would get there goods strait from the distribution centers.

i was interested because one of my uncle a couple of years ago was selling goods from amway.

well thanks again my friend i read most of your "reports". those stories should be on tv…

What axe do you have to grind? Are you a disgruntled Amway distributor who couldn't make it and are now blaming the system for you own lack of character? I find it incredible that you would spend your time, money, and resources to maintain a page whose sole purpose is to discredit Amway. I can't believe your motives are entirely altruistic. What is in it for you?

If you spent as much energy in building an Amway distributorship as you do on this web page - you'd probably be at least an Emerald Direct!

Thank you for the information. I didn't need all of this info to reach the same conclusion years ago. A freind I hadn't heard from in a while invited us (my wife and I) to dinner. We went, and they said they were just leaving to go to a meeting and wanted us to come too. We felt funny, but went. After a couple of hours of showing Amway product and telling us how we could be rich, and describing how everything you ever spend is tax deductable, we felt funny and hungry. Ever since I've felt Amway was a good thing to do if you want to lose all of your freinds.

Dear Sidney:

Today at school I started talking to two good friends of mine and we somehow got on the topic of Amway. I had never even heard of Amway before today. They joined Amway two years ago because their parents are of the business. The conversation was mostly about the Amway products and how good they were and how they get money back from buying the products for themselves. They told me about the "branching" system, where the money would soon pour in if I became a sponsor to six people, and then it would blossom from there. I soon became very interested in the company and the thought of having to do virtually nothing to make money. I myself am a college student and having some extra cash on hand sounded good. They also started telling me how much of a tax write-off they get by owning their own business. Being the skeptical person I am, I had about a million questions. The answers to my questions made me think that Amway was GREAT!! Tomorrow I have a meeting with them and they are going to give me some tapes and videos to view so that I can learn more about it.

I decided to do some research on my own about Amway and I stumbled upon your web page and boy am I glad I did. Your articles not only answered many of the questions I had, they also made me realize that "if it's too good to be true, it probably is". I have made the decision not to become a "middle man" and save myself expense, time, and frustration. THANKS A MILLION (literally)

I've only had an hour or so to look at this, but I LOVE IT.

I'll be back

Well it has been interesting to read this stuff. I have started an amway business. Why? Because it makes since, if you just look at the numbers, numbers don't lie!! I have heard everything bad about amway, but you never hear any good. They are a world wide company, the second largest volume in Japan, #1 is Coke. MCI, Coke, Ford, GM are just some of the companies that network with amway. The business world doesn't have a problem with amway, why should you. The problem with the amway business is if your human you can get involved. Amway is not for everyone. Yes it does take TV time away, a little extra money, but I haven't meet anyone, I don't care how much money they make that lives the lifestyle of a Diamond. Amway is just a vechile to get you your dreams and goals. If youy don't have a dream you will never build an amway business. Amway works if you are willing to work it. It is up to you and you alone, you have to become a leader and most people would rather trade dollars for hours which if you look around they are disappearing (AT& T 40,000 layed off, FIRED). It takes guts to build an amway business, if you are showed the plan, and alot has to do with who shows you, But why are doctor, lawyers, Business onwers building amway business to gain the control of money and time. When building the business take what you like and leave the rest. It is just a business vechile that makes since, 6000 products are there for my choosing, and i get payed to shop if you look OPEN MINED and are willing to do what it take to get your dreams they will come true and that statement is true no matter if you build the business or not.

Why? Why build it, only you can have the answer to that question.

Nice Job… Lots of work… I visited your home page after surfing the net and somehow ended up loading almost everything you have to read…

However, I didn't find anything yet on deprogramming.. My best friend of 20+ years got tied up in this cult and since that has happened, Things have never been the same.

Since we refused to "Join The Circle" we are second class. He is almost broke. Threatening letters from the utilities and living from day to day with "dreams" pasted on his dashboard, refrigerator, bathroom etc. It is incredible. But always finds some money for more tapes..Or another rally in this state or that state. Putting on the ritz and making it seem like he has money and riches when he doesn't....

Never sells a product… Always trying to "Draw Circles"…

Where is the Law ? Where is the Sanity.... I think I found it on your page.

Thanks for the realization that it is not US, But them… What does it take before these people learn…

I 've used up enough of your time… Keep up the good work… Like to see more stuff on your Page. Thanks for the sounding board…

Dear Loser, I'm free. It took three and one half years. You work. Die broke.

Do better things with your time than attempt to tear down the only multi-billion dollar debt-free corporation in the United States.

You are a classic dream stealer who is depriving large numbers of people a chance to have control over the only thing that really matters - their lives! Wrapping your rhetoric in the garb of public welfare almost makes you sound like you know what you're talking about.

If you don't like owning you own business (supplied by the Amway Corporation), QUIT! PLEASE! Don't worry about us - we'll be fine helping people who want to be helped.

New Emeralds

(Check us out in March 96 Amagram)

Sidney,

Thank you ever so much for saving us from losing hundreds if not thousands of dollars. What really struck home were the comments about selling your TV, your car, and your house if thats what it takes to succeed. It's scary, but that's exactly what we were told. We have only been in the organization for six months, but I,ve already been looked upon as the black sheep in our uplines downline because I don't attend all the rallies, seminars, free enterprise weekend, and whatever else they can cook up to collect money from us. Also, I can't believe they charge their own downline for demonstration on Artistry or whatever or to attend one of their open meetings. The articles you posted on the internet were an eye opener!! Needless to say, you can get more accurate information outside of the organization than you could ever hope to gain from within. "Just keep the sheep happy and don't tell them anything except what we want them to know!" From this point on, we will no longer support an organization that rips people off!!

I would like to add that we do like the product and the personal shopper. We would like to see the organization changed so that all distributors receive product directly from the Amway Corporation and not from someone upline. I believe that this is the only way to end the corruption within the Amway System. BTW, it is an illegal pyramid system. Please add our names to the Anti-Trust Law Suit against Yager, Britt and the Amway Corporation.

Hi, My name is **** and I am really in unbelief to see how you can say all of this. I personally have my own business, a new distributor on the Wild Wild West Team here in Tennessee. I am doing great, the tools are awesome, and I don't see where you come with these things. I tell you one thing, if you have the dream, the commitment, and the faith that you want freedom…to never have a "job" again you can do it. Have you ever tried that before. If you want more information on it I would be glad to introduce you to some great leaders and maybe if you want to try again we can help you with the team effort to become successful.....Let me know and I will be glad to help anyway I can…

SW, SW, SW, SW, SW THAT'S IT PERIOD 1-2-3…4-5-6 I'AM GOING DIAMOND THAT'S IT PERIOD IT IS TOO BAD YOU GUYS HAD A BAD EXPERIENCE WITH THE BUSINESS. NOT ALL DISTIBUTORS ARE LIKE THE ONES YOU DE- SCRIBED. BUT ALL THE REAL LEADERS ARE CLOSE WITH GOD. I AM A 20 YEAR OLD DIAMOND. YOU SHOULD HAVE REALIZED WHAT THE BUSINESS REALLY IS - A BUSINESS OF YOUR OWN AND NOBODY ELSES. ALL THINGS IN THE BUSINESS ARE VOLUNTARY- REMEMBER NO ONE FORCED YOU TO DO ANYTHING. THE DECISION IS YOURS. AND DON'T FORGET THIS WHEN YOUR CHILD ASKS WHY HE/SHE CANNOT GO TO COLLEGE.

> > What axe do you have to grind? Are you a disgruntled Amway distributor
> > who couldn't make it and are now blaming the system for you own lack
> > of character? I find it incredible that you would spend your time,
> > money, and resources to maintain a page whose sole purpose is to
> > discredit Amway. I can't believe your motives are entirely altruistic.
> > What is in it for you?
>
> If you've already decided that you can't believe it, then I'm sure there's
> nothing I could say that would convince you otherwise.

> [-------------------------------------------------------------------------]
> [        Sidney Schwartz * Beaverton, OR * schwartz@teleport.com          ]
> [-------------------------------------------------------------------------]

What I have decided is that you are a loser. You couldn't make it so you try to justify you failure by stealing the dreams of others. Everything that appears on your page is hearsay. I AM SURE that the diamonds are making money on the tools they sell me. So what? They can either make money or lose money, there is no such thing as break even. The tools are a necessary part of the business and I an glad there is someone there to provide them. They are necessary for my success. If you were in the excavation business and you needed a bulldozer, would you resent the fact that the guy who sold it to you made a profit? I can gain my freedom and financial independence. Do I care who else profits from my enterprise? NO! Amway is NOT a get rich quick scheme. It takes a lot of commitment and work but the fact is, those who are willing to persist eventually realize their dreams. It is a two to five year plan that requires you to show the plan five or six nights a week. They tell you that up front. How many times did you show the plan before you gave up? How long did you stick it out. When a lumberjack fells a redwood tree, was the last stroke of the axe any more important than the first? If you were unwilling to do what it takes to succeed and failed, it does not mean that the system doesn't work. It simply means that you are an immature asshole.

Dear Sydney,

You've done a great job. It's a great relief for the thousands who were struggling to forgive themselves for quitting the business. A great excuse for people who are searching for a reason not to tap into the network.

Sydney, the average guy doesn't make it. It takes guts and a strong dream to make it in anything in the world.

Keep your work up. We dont want anyone feeling bad about himself because of Amway. You're there to console them. Good for their ego.

This site wont do any harm to the network. It's the consolation site for quitters and whiners. And, if someone has missed the point because of this site, he probably deserves it.

I only hope that you get rich some way or it'll do terrible damage to your ego when you have to bump into rich-young-retired-happy Amway distributors every other day.

Keep trying. There is a good number out there who will encourage you. Never quit because quitters never win. But Sydney, make sure you're in the right vehicle with the right gears. Man you're in something that is now in the neutral gear and the only other gear it has is the 'reverse'.

The truth will set you free. Good luck.

Interesting information on the world of Amway.

Thank you very much for your informative website regarding Amway. i personally think you have done an extraordinary job both with your format and with your content. I am a physician and was recently contacted by an organization calling itself the "group 2000", claiming to offer opportunities for diversified income by taking advantage of the next big development in retail: "interactive distribution". It turns out to be a front for Amway; the shocking thing is that they are targeting their efforts with some apparent success to physicians, who of all people should know a silk purse from a sows ear.

Though your articles and information are correct, I would hope that you do realize that every statistic represented in "the plan" is at the same time said to be approximate! Your information is thurough, but I believe you have either missed the point or are simply a disgruntled ex-distributor. First of all, let us consider the point that you or no one else is forced into joining the distributorship. Next all of the distributors chose how involved they are. Thirdly, for those people who have decided that they do not want to continue to be involved, there is no penalty for quitting. The lawsuit information is a good idea, but let's put it in the right perspective. Those disgruntled ex-distributors are trying to capitalize on there own failure. If anyone has listened to the tapes, there is a disclaimer at the end of each one which says in plain english that the techniques suggested have worked for others and may not work for you. Also, let's look at the fact that these people decided to start their own business. They own it and they do what they want with it.

As for the misrepresentation, there is no doubt that it does work. The book, Profiles of Success, is not a album of poeple who are very good scam artists who are broke, they are people who have made it work. Also, the most ironic part about the lawsuit is that these people who have supposedly failed, chose to get in and quit, went to the seminars, read the books, and listened to the tapes, ultimately missed the point. The point being:

TO TAKE CONTROL OF THEIR LIVES AND BE RESPONSIBLE

FOR THEIR ACTIONS AND NOT LET SOMEONE ELSE DETERMINE

THEIR FUTURE!!

As an ex-amway rep (who got out just in time), I think you are doing a wonderful job about telling the truths about Amway. Them Amboids are still at it (trying to convince some of my friends to join) and I do my little bit in saving a few souls over here.

Anyway, thought you would be interested that Consumer reports (Feb 96) has again done a comparison on washing liquids and Amway's dish drops is again ranked as among the poorest values. Maybe you would like to add that into your WWW pages.

Thanks for your frank look at this program./ Business opportunity I now have some more affirmation of the skepticism I once had. I will not be joining!!!!!!!!!!!

I am an Amway Distributor and I am very glad that I am. I have heard all the things you have said and I have found that in every case the people who are complaining about this "Cult" have had little or no success and they have given up trying after a very short period of time. This is a business. And like any business it requires persisance. Most common businesses don't turn a profit for 3 to 5 years with the owners putting in 50+ hours per week. Many people get into Amway and they are told that they need to devote 10 to 15 hours per week on a very consistant basis. They make excusses why they can't committ to that and when they are told that they will have very limitted success, they claim that they are being manipulated. They are being told the facts. Amway is not "pie in the sky" "get rich quick". It is hard work and consistant, persistant effort. Just like any other business that has the potential to make you wealthy. The real difference is that there really is a support structure for those who choose to make use of it. You are in business for yourself but not by yourself. If someone wants the security of a regular paycheck with the minimal amount of effort and no more presure than to come home and watch TV every night, STAY OUT OF AMWAY, YOU WON'T MAKE IT!!! That's not Amway's fault, it's yours.

If you want an oporunity to develop a strong secondary, or even primary income on a limited time COMMITTMENT!!!!!!, due some research, and see the plan!!

Yesterday, you sent me the correct WWW address for Amway debunking info. Thanks. An acquaintance called me yesterday about a fantastic "opportunity" and a "going concern" for me!! I got to the bottom of it in no time and ended up hanging up on the guy. Then, I conulted the web to get more informed in case he called back. Now, I am armed with info. Cheers, and keep up this great public service.

With the amount of time you have invested in research and creation of your page I would like to know how you became so negative towards Amway? Your page is quite passionate and that's what leads me to this question.

Hey Sidney,

I was just wondering who pickled your brain?? I must agree with many of the other responses that you just have broke thinking and that you and your buddies here are jsut trying to justify to yourselves why you didn't make it in this business. You'd rather smash the corporation, support groups and distributors rather than realize that it was your own fault. I'll agree that a large amount of people out there are just Amroids, but if you actually associated with some of the people making this business work rather than sitting around with a bunch of social and mental losers, you'd see that this business is the same as any other serious business, or profession. I'm sure you can find a doctor, lawyer, engineer, conventional business person who are also assholes and walk around without knowning what they're doing or saying either. If you build this business right, with ethics and the intention to help people to succeed themselves inorder to help yourself succeed, you'll make a lot of money. As for a couple of articles I read on there of something like 18 plans a year were shown by some people, they could expect not to sponsor anybody. This whole business is statistics, and if you know how to work them, it'll work for you. As for that price comparison you did, i't GARBAGE!!! The Amway business is set up to mainly compete with the Billion dollar industry of catalogue sales, and it is VERY competitive and does EXCELLENT. If those comparisons were done properly, you could see that the products make by Amway are at a better value as a whole group. Maybe one or two are more expensive, but by using the whole line of products, you will save money, and if you are so broke minded that you have to search out those very few that are more expensive, you'll spend more time doing it than you could probably save in money in a year! I also wonder who was ripping you off with the service charge or shipping. I pay a very minimal amount of money for shipping and service charges (less than 4% if any on products). If you really want to know the truth about this business, ask someone who has the actual facts and some intellegence. I've been involved in Amway, with a support group for under a year, not only am I turning a profit, so is most of my active downline. The only difference which'll determine your success or failure in this business is the people you're plugged into. GET A DREAM so maybe you'll be able to live a life. I'm retiring at the end of this year (I'M UNDER 25). WHAT'LL YOU BE DOING NEXT YEAR!!!!!

MAKING IT HAPPEN, GOING DIAMOND!!

Hi!

I have a question to ask you. Back in 1992 I was suckered into the system. I got out a year later after losing a couple of thousand dollars and a few friends. When I left, I had written my DD a letter stating my reasons for leaving but made the mistake of not sending it to the corporation.

Now that there is more evidence available against Yager, is there any possibility of reclaiming some money? I'd like to settle the score.

Sidney,

I have two friends of mine who just started to try to recruit me into being one of their downlines in their Amway business. I am going to try to convince them to get out while the getting is good and they haven't lost too much money or respect. My Dad always taught me that the most valuable thing that is yours and yours alone is your name and a good reputation. Once you lose that, you'll never get it back. I am going to bring in our priest to see if he can help convince my friends. BTW they are involved in Yeagers group. They sent me an "INTERNET SERVICES CORPORATION" tape to pique my interest. Any suggestions you might have, I would appreciate hearing about.

Again, Thanks it is a real service your doing.

I attended a recruitment 'business opportunity' meeting last night. My brother has been hounding me for 3 weeks to come to his house and listen to this opportunity. I did'nt know anything about amway last night. I listened to this guy pitch the product. The presentation lasted 1 hour and 30 min. It took the guy 1 hour and 20 min to finally say Amway, and that was in passing.

I have over 125 pages printed of Amway info from the net. Thanks for keeping the info -- I hope I can persuede my bro' before he loses too much money and self-esteem.

Keep up the good work.

Are you sure that you are not an economic skinhead?

You claim never to have been an Amway distributor. After witnessing firsthand all of the negative, failure oriented diatribe you spew forth it is obviously the best course of action for your type to never have the guts to stop making excuses and make something of your life. Instead you opt to stay broke for the rest of your life, living off a meager paycheck and relying on a miniscule pension and social security until you die, never knowing what it is like to really live life. That's alright however, we need people like you to clean our pool and wash our cars and tell us how "we will NEVER make it and we are fools for trying." "Just look at the overwhelming facts and all of the failures" you say! A fixation with failure will bring just that; failure. A classic example of the blind leading the blind.

For every negative aspect you must dig through 100 positive ones to find it.

Amway: Astounding growth by any measure. A sure sign of failure.

The rich get richer and the poor get poorer, as the old cliche goes. Absolutely correct. Why? Who do the poor hang around with? The poor. Who do they get their advice from? The poor. What do they become? Poorer.

Alternately; Who do the rich hang around with? The rich. Who do they get their advice from? The rich. What do they become? More rich.

All that I can do is hope, perhaps foolishly, that your eyes will be opened to the big picture.

As I had stated originally in my opening email to you that you indeed have, more than ever, strained at the knat while swallowing (missing) the camel.

Good luck (as if there were such a thing);

PS. You are welcome to republish any of my remarks as long as you do not take them out of context. It will only reinforce either of the two polarized mentalities (viz. Success vs. Failure).

Sydney

Nice revelations and right on the money! I was involved with Amway for 23 years and have a huge downline group, but built it outside the normal lines. All my legs were "stolen" by Britt/Yager (They just created another Diamond in Depth for me). Bottom line, we never used the curiosity approach, never sold books and tapes except from the company, but did develop a good training system. I became very frustrated by the fact that as an Emerald 18 years with as many as 7 DD legs, I couldn't afford any of the things promoted by the Players. I also witnessed the cash carrying ability of the bad guys at a rally and Quit

Sydney:

At first I thought it best not to respond to your negative remarks about my servicing corporation, Amway. But the more I considered what has been said by so many, it became appearant that the whole story is not being told and that while there is an element of truth, truth is being made out a lie.

Many people will check no further than at your homepage and thus will miss out on what I consider after 54 years of life and 24 years in business to be an absolutely unbeatable distribution system for those motivated to make "A life" rather than just an existance. And to do so by helping other people rather than by not caring about them.

First of all, it is important to note there is a big difference between the Amway Corportion and independant distributors.

It is obvious and believable that some people have been hurt because of some Distributors remarks and/or teaching upline. For that I apologize, but you need to understand, Amway itself has very little control over the actions or remarks of some 2.5 million independant Distributors. Unless, of course they can prove it.

As you know, the Amway corporation has a very strong and ethical code of conduct, but they cannot walk beside each distributor to correct them when wrong.

If you could examine any large business today, my suspicion is you would be able to find many things wrong in each of them. It is not that they are inherently bad, it's just that when you deal with people, you are always going to find some that are dishonest for whatever reason, and somewhere along the line, someone gets hurt.

Until age 52, I was a man who if asked: Do you want to get into the Amway business? would have said an unqualifed "NO". Even tho, I have always considered myself "open minded" and willing to look at anything.

Because of this, I feel very qualified to speak to those who say we use deceptive methods to recruit.

Today I am so thankful, they didn't use the "Amway" word. For reasons unclear to me, it would have turned me off. It was only when I learned that we were dealing with over 1,200. major manufacturers that my interest peaked and my wife and I agreed to get in the business. the whole story here is to lengthy to describe. But, the bottom line is that after 6 months of listening to successful Distributors, (Emerald and above only) share their experiences via tapes, I began to realize that this truely was an opportunity to obtain the genuine freedom I had always sought. After we got involved, we discovered the value of sponsoring.

Subseqently, all three of my married children and their spouses have gotten in the business. After one and 1/2 years of mediocre effort, one of them is making enough profit (part time) to meet his $1,200+ monthly house payment, another has reached 2500PV, and the third is at the 1000pv level.

While none of us are Directs yet, there is every reason to believe 1996 will allow at least two of us to meet this goal and we look forward to meeting and serving the needs of others and helping them realize their Dreams of financial independance, honestly, as Amway distributors.

Our upline has never required us to buy any of the tapes or books and we have never been required to attend the functions, however it is strongly encouraged if one is serious about building a big business. And knowing human nature as I do, I can tell you, One will not succeed in this business without them. If he did, I would be astonished!

The bottom line is: To be successful, do what successful people have done, (it isn't easy, and isn't for the "Lottery mentality") Follow the 8 proven core steps of the system, Develop a you first, me last attitude and don't let anyone steal your dream.

There is much more I could say, but I've not the time. My hope is that the name "Amway" will not prevent the truth from prevailing over ignorance.

God's Word says: "You will know the truth and the truth will set you free." So, if you want to be free, you need to heed this teaching which by the way applies to whatever you do, whether Amway or anything else.

Maybe a new upline would change things?

Good work on making the information available.

First of all, I would like to thank you for showing everyone your

side of the Amway Corpoation, by I tend to stongly disagree. I realize that there is an extremely large group of people who have failed at this business, but their lack of success has nothing to with the Amway Corporation. Your home page provides some of these people a means for fabricating excuses as to why they may not have succeed in this business. I think it would be safe to assume that you miserably failed at this business and now you are not taking responsibility for your failure. I am currently a Freshman at Penn State University and have been an Amway Distributor for some time. Already, with hard work and determination, I expect to be a Direct Distributor by the end of the year and financially free by the time I graduate. Not once was I forced into buying tapes or attending functions as you insinuate, it was a decision that I made on my own and this has contributed to my success thus far. I really feel sorry for those who have upline who push them into purchasing "TOOLS", if this really happens, but I have never encountered it. If some of these people had my wonderful upline, maybe they would have seen what Amway is really about. Just because you or others have been tainted by your negative experience in the business please do not stereotype the entire Amway corporation because of a few unethical people.

Some Will, Some Won't, So What,

I was contacted just this evening....thanks for the great amount of info (good info) on this matter .. i have just few questions now to do in the right place..if i want to loose other time..

Hi there Mr. Shwartz

Image you writing a book or what so ever you do and put it on a tape. How do you think you could sold them? By shouting it out loud? In amway if you invest some money to buy some tapes and books to developpe your buisness (about 5000 a year is not very hight for a buisness, no body get rich by working for others) and people think you'r stupid to buy some positive stuff…but if you go to the bank and borought 80,000$ for a house on 25 years and pay twice the price whit interest, they think that right!! How stupid is our society?!!

That was my opinion have a good live

thanks for all this info. now mayby i can keep these monkeys off my back! the fact that its recent will realy help to get them to turn tail when the truth is shown to them!

Hello. I find your articles rather humorous. So, were you in Amway and dropped out after finding out what this Amway was all about? I have heard alot for and against Amway, but never anything so "cut-throat" (for lack of better term). I would like to point out a couple things though. Do you watch TV? Hollywood is nothing more than a huge cult trying to brainwash your brain with garbage. Don't believe me, just turn on those TV talkshows that corrupt people's minds. How about the evening news? Have you ever seen anything so corrupt and vile before? How many Amway meetings have you been to lately? Yes. I am in Amway, and it is about time someone is brainwash people to think with a good attitude, and brainwashing them with God, family, country, and business (respectivly). The problems with America today are that no one wants to hear those things because it means respouncibility. If this Amway was so crooked, how come the FTC has not closed them down.

One last question. . . who do you work for? Does that company not have the attitude that they are the best in their field? I also have my own computer consulting practice, and I truely believe that my business is the best computer consulting business in my area. You know what that is called?. . . Self Confidence. Try to get ANYWHERE in life (with or without Amway) without self confidence, and you WILL fail.

Sid,

Being a new navigator on the Net, like most people I tried to find things about which I'd be familiar. Was I ever surprised and delighted to find your page.

After spending almost ten years in the business, one develops a real sense of the people in the business and the kind of company Amway real is.

Reading through your respones was most enlightening. Even though I have been away from the business and its people for a number of years, many of those emotions and feelings that I long forgot came rushing back. I guess some things never change.

I could tell from the respones that many wanted to know your background, your experiences with Amway, etc. Since you chose not to publish those things, I can only assume that you either shared them individually with those who wrote to you or declined to share them at all. I would be very interested in comparing notes with you on our mutual experiences someday if you felt so inclined.

On thing that was not covered anywhere by any of your articles or responses, was one very particularly expensive experience I had with my upline. I thought you'd appreciate it.

Two upline diamonds, one T.F. of Colorado Springs,Co., and his upline, one T.N. of Boise, Idaho, ran a sort of Ponzzi investment scheme with their downline. I perhaps should say at the expenses of their downline. These two wonderful fellows, having convinced their downline that an upline would never knowingly do anything harmful to their downline, "persuaded" their downline to invest over 12 million dollars with them in "various and special investment opportunities".

They then paid off old investors with new investors money. You know how those things work. Anyway, they both ended up filing bankruptcy. T.N. was prosecuted by the State of Minnisota and went to jail.

This kind of activity, similiar to the "outside businesses" the tapes, books and functions became, are clear violations of Amway's Rules of Conduct (rule four I believe). Even though many distributors lost thousands and hundreds of thousands of real dollars, Amway never took action against either T.F. or T.N.

They both kept their businesses even though Amway took action against some distributors who tried to "bring T.F. and T.N. to justice". We all learned that the "Rules of Conduct" are like that phrase in Orwell's book "1984". In which all pigs are equal but some are more equal than others. Many who have traveled down the road of soap and hope found only tears and financial ruin. But since these folks no longer affiliate with a business, a company, and people who do not practice what they preach, the only ones left are the victimizers. And they collect their money and their pin awards, and tell each other, "ain't it great", as they walk across the stage on the bodies of their victims.

Feel free to publish this letter without my e-mail name address.

Fuck you ! This is bullshit

Fuck you sucker. I'll rip your head off for spreading things like that. We won't let you get away with this.

The True Way

I understand you feel it is your duty to "warn" everyone of the Amway scam but please, while your at it why don't you warn all the small business owners that 85% of them won't be around in 5 years. There is a good place to start. do you know what it takes to start your own business? I do, and I can tell you that the risks are 100 times lower in Amway even if it is a little harder to succeed. It seems to me I have seen your name involved with another MLM. Is that true and if so why is that one so good and Amway so bad. Actually don't tell me, I don't want to here your long winded justifications for your failures. The time you take to write your page on the net shows me a little about were your priorities are. For your sake I hope you make good money slamming Amway. While you are on the net I'll go get a few more people in my business and con them into washing their clothes and wiping their ass.

p.s. save me your stats I have read them already.

Amway: The Untold Story

Your Comments, Part 4