AUS: Your Comments 13

Here are some of the responses I've received to the information on this page. I've left them as is, except for a) removing the names to protect privacy, and b) reformatting them to fit the screen better.

This is a long file…I suggest downloading it to your computer and reading it off-line.

We've been involved for two years…kind of kicking this business around. Very motivated at times, and too busy to do it justice at others. Compared to the $100,000 we spent buying a retail store three years ago, however, the cost to distribute Amway products is peanuts. Most of the $150.00 (kit) is product, which can be returned for a full refund.

The products are excellent and we have had nothing but loving, patient support from our sponsors. Our upline in general have made us mad at times, and there are a fair share of jerks in this business, as in any other. However, the big incomes are real, and people reach the top all over the world every week. If you're looking for the perfect business, you will look forever. If you work Amway, it delivers big time…

Sponsoring is very difficult if you recruit young, low-income people, because most of them work at night, and this business is built in the evenings…functions are also evening events. So our first three sponsored folks didn't make it. We are going at the business more from a product angle now, rather than frenetic recruiting. And when we do recruit, we tell them it's Amway. Wild-eyed, cagey distributors are called Ameroids in our group, and we don't intend to behave that way.

There is pressure to attend the big, relatively costly functions, and we have had to scale back. WWDB can be pushy. But we are not young, starry-eyed kids and we are free to decide whether or not to attend. And we do. If we make it to the top, it will be because we decided to devote the time and energy, not because we were swept up in a cult.

Amway is extremely well run financially and the families who head the company are quality people with deep, strong values. We can tolerate the Ameroids out there, although they make it hard on the rest of us by giving Amway a black eye every time they screw up and alienate someone.

I think we Americans spend so much time picking everything apart, including ourselves as a nation, that we can miss the big picture. If you want a huge income and are willing to devote the time, grab onto this business and go for it. You must have a thick skin, because you will encounter a lot of negative reactions. But, with many professional types getting in now, it's going to be easier and easier to bring in quality folks and build a big organization.

Our family consists of parents and two young adults (19 and 22). My wife has become an Amway fanatic against the wishes of the other three members of the family. Amway is (or has) destroyng the family. Hidden tapes, videos, books, out until midnight +, mountains of unwanted soap, coffee, car wash etc. etc. What are we to do? How do we combat the constant brainwashing of the upline (a married couple)? Await some constructive advice.

Dear Mr. Schwartz.

I have been introduced to amway through a friend of mine. During the meeting I was very skeptical, in fact, it sounded like the distributor was repeating motivational mumbo jumbo, and trying to suck me in with illusions of grandeur.

Well, now I definately think he was, not maliciously of course, but only because he has been brainwashed.

Thank you very much for your info and webpage, it has confirmed what I've believed all along.

Hello Sidney,

I am an Amway distributor ( perhaps this statement may be viewed in a way similar to the admission of those attending an Alchoholics Anonymous meeting). I started my business about 1 1/2 years ago.

One of the first things I did was a price comparison at my local grocery store (Luckys). After discovering the incredeble price differences ( Amway almost always higher to much higher, although I did find a couple of Amway products that were a good deal i.e. Dry Chlorine Bleach # E-8204 3lb. size) I talked to my up- line Direct Distributor about what I found. I told him that in the basic training tapes that I listened to ( from our line of sponsorship not Amway) there were frequent references to a family saving, by the use of Amway products, somewhere around the amount of $1,500 to $2,000 a year even at retail.

"How can I go out and tell people that this is a good deal when the prices I've seen don't back it up?" I asked. I was rather vehement about the whole thing and he was at a loss to explain. A short while later I talked to a furtherup-line person and asked him the same thing. He said that basically this business is not about product consumption and saving money. "After all has anyone ever shown you thier passbook with all thier price savings in it". The average person who talks about the added cost of the products only does so because they have a poverty attitude. This business is about making money and if you're willing to do what it takes you can make lots. Well that convinced me for a while. I just wished that the people on the tapes would stop making such a point about the "Savings". At the time I thought that people, if at all like me, would see right through that line.

Well I stayed in and am still in but, all along, the whole cost issue has been festering in the back of my mind. Within the last six weeks or so I started really thinking about the price issue again and have reached some interesting conclusions. Now what I'm going to say is in no way directly provable. It is only my opinion based on my observations and the way my mind works.

These are the things that caused me to reach these conclusions.

1. There is a large difference in the PV/BV values between Amway products and the other products ( from outside manufacturers i.e. "The Personal Shoppers Cataloge")that Amway markets. This lead me to believe Amway products have a lot of extra "Profit" built into thier prices.

2. An often stated example during the presentation of the Amway Sales and Marketing Plan is the fact that there is a 65% profit between the amount a manufacturer sells thier product to the first person in the distribution chain for and the final retail price that the consumer pays. And it is from this 65% "Profit", that ostensibly does not go to jobbers, wholesalers and retailers (in the Amway scheme of things), that a pool of money is created. This pool then is returned to Amway distributors in the form of bonuses. Sounds very logical to me. Amway pays its distributors from it's "Profits". The only thing is, large grocery store chains buy directly from most major manufacturers (i.e. Protor and Gamble), as well as large commercial farm co- ops. As I understand it, large grocery chains operate on a very slim margin, just a few percent mark-up, and since they are buying most things directly from the manufacturer there is no where near a 65% margin in thier pricing. The exceptions to this may be locally and nationally produced items such as potato chips, some bakery goods and some specialty items. Those things may very well be subject to the "65%'' mark-up through the jobber, wholesaler and retailer. This by and large may appear to be one of the reasons for the price discrepancies between Amway products and brand name items in the large grocery stores. It would appear that Amway's pricing policy is along the line of convienience stores, which as you know are usually always higher.

My conclusion:

1. Amway does not pay it's distributors from it's "real profits". That would be business suicide. I believe that any small business through large corperation must profit by about 5% per year, above all the cost of doing business, in order to survive. I belive that these numbers can be statistically verified.

2. I am of the opinion that what Amway does is collect a bit extra from a lot of people and redistributes that "Pool" to those who have successfully built a large enough collection agency. Most would call this commissions. In other words I pay about $1 more for a tube of toothpaste ( yes even at my "wholesale" cost) so that all my up-line will get a piece of that $1. That is thier reward for building an organization to reach into my wallet. And for convincing me that it's a good deal to boot.

3. Of course the simple fact is, that it works, for some. Yes, a person with the huevos or who can develop the huevos can make a lot of money in this business.

4. Amway does have a reputation, whether for good or not may yet to be determined. But given the current financial and political situation in this country this business is undoubtedly the best oppourtunity for the average "John or Jane Doe" on the street to make a legitimate bundle, it requires no special education ( except developing huevos), is open to anyone 18 and up and is the ultimate "Equal Opportunity".

5. Or, the whole thing's gonna come crashing down around thier ears.

Sidney,

My wife and I recently entered the world of Amway distributors but before we got too far into it, I decided to seek as much information as I could. Currently, we order and use some of the products, but that's it. I haven't started showing the plan as of yet because I am still trying to justify the whole thing in my mind. I am the type of person that can push something he doesn't believe in. I could fake it, but I wouldn't feel real good about that, especially if I was deceiving people. I guess you could say I am on a quest of sorts. I am sitting on the fence right now trying to decide which way to go with this business opportunity. It's like an author who's researching a book before writing it. I am researching this business before I delve too deeply into it. And your Web site has been able to provide me with a great deal of information, both pro and con. Which is great! I am the type of person who needs to hear both sides of the story before making a decision and you're presenting the good and the bad works great for me. I find myself at being at an advantage being fairly new to the business. I still have the open mindedness to see the potential of the business but also I have been around it long enough to already see the negatives of it. And both of sides of this are being reinforced when reading through your web site info. So your site is doing me a great service by providing me with the information that I need to make a very important decision. I already know one thing: If I do decide to pursue this business, I will do it under my terms and in a fashion that I can live with. This may result in my not making it big in the biz but at least I will be able to live with myself knowing that I gave it a try and that I did it my way. By the way, my sponsor has never pressured me for anything and has always been up front and honest with me. I respect him for that and if I do decide to continue with the biz, I will model some of my approach after his. In the meantime, keep up the good work and keep posting those responses (both good and bad).

I noticed you haven't included names on your posted responses. I think this is a good policy so although I am giving you my name and e-mail address, I do so only so that you can reply to me should you desire. Otherwise, if you post my response, I would like to remain as anonymous as everyone else. Thanks.

Thank you very much for the information.

I almost get into this business. I met a gey in Homedepot. He began to show me the business. We went to two meetings. I was a little bit suspicious about it. They just show you how to recruit people and seldomly mention the products. Not mention teach you how to select product. Nobody compare the price of Amway product to the product on the market.

They keep mention that in every dollar you spend $0.65 goes to the middle men. If this is true, how come you do not invest in the retail business.

After checking your WWW page, this confirms my suspicious.

Thank you very much. Keep up the good work.

Just wanted to tell you that I found your information highly interesting. Of course, all the folks who are in Amway that have bashed your site as being garbage, are just protecting their interests. Their financially vested in Amway and obviously you're not.

Also, it's important to know that Amway is made up of several 'factions'. It's hard to know exactly what the corporate stance is because so many of these 'factions' have different tactics. This lack of standardization of materials and marketing is exactly what's led to the negative images that people get when they hear the very word "Amway."

Keep us all posted!

Sydney,

This is just a quick note to everyone reading your NEGATIVE home page. All I can say is I am hard at work in this business (for about 5 months) and I am progressing exactly as I feel that I should be. I have been to 2 major functions and I can safely say that they have been two of the most important weekends of my life (as well as my wife's).

The most important things I wanted to say are these; The tapes and books are wonderful for my spirit AND my knowledge. I have applied these techniques to my job, and now as of Jan. 1, 1997 I will have doubled my salary, with less hours, and will be in charge of a 2 million dollar a year food and beverage organization. By the way, I am only 26 years old and I did not go to college and I sure didn't get this knowledge off of the street. THEY HELP IN MORE WAYS THAN YOU CAN IMAGINE!!!

Also as to the INCREDIBLE PROFITS that these diamonds are making at major functions: Obviously most people writing in are CLUELESS (no offense intended) to what it takes to put these things on. I run these events in a convention center and the average cost for a function with two meals and meeting/banquet rooms and audio/video/ and equipment setup and power requirements, etc. etc. etc. runs on average of 125 dollars for two days for up to 2000 people (and that is in the midwest, not on the beach!). That only includes BEHIND THE SCENES of the building! Understand what you are talking about before you start caculating their profits for them......

I am working hard, and I will continue to work hard at this to give my parents all of the things that they deserve in their retirement but cannot have. I DARE ANY ONE OF YOU NEGATIVE, SELF SERVING, WITCH HUNTERS TO TAKE THAT PRECIOUS DREAM AWAY FROM ME!!!!

May you all dream as high and as far as your hearts will allow. God Bless…

Sidney,

Excellant info. I have been researching MLM companies of which Amway is the Grand Master. Many MLMs use the Amway example to their benefit, merely saying this is not like Amway etc.etc.. I would suggest that MLM and Amway are, for all practical purposes identical regardless of the label. "A rose by any other name.."

The following site may make a good link for your visiters:

http://www.best.com/~vandruff/mlm1.html

note: mlm1 is mlm(numeral one)

I am a Certified Financial Planner and have tried to warn many people about the fraud of MLM including of course my mother my sister and my wife. I have had one success over the years and can directly attribute my success to the above article. It is a long shot due the defensiveness of the Moony eyed followers of MLM but it worked in one instance.

Thanks for the great job.

Lee Brown

Amway is no different than any other form of distribution. In traditional distribution you have a manufacturer, who sells his product to tens of jobbers, who passes it on to hundereds of wholesalers, who passes it to thousands of retail outlets, to end up in the hands of millions and millions of consumers. All entities in this distribution system are paid for the VOLUME OF THE PRODUCTS that move through their business.

Same as in network marketing businesses such as Amway. Amway, the coordinating supplier, sells theri product to Direct Distributors, who pass it on to a few frontline distributors, who pass it on to more distributors, and so on, and so on. All get paid for the VOLUME OF THE PRODUCTS (sound familiar) that move through their business.

In the first distribution system which you participate, products are consumed, volume is generated and who makes the money? The entities which OWN parts of the distribution system, i.e. Wal MArt, JC Penney's, etc.

In network marketing, if you chose to participate in it, the same people get paid......the people that own the distribution system i.e., the independent distributors.

The fact that Amway puts it all together, BIG DEAL. What if it was Palmolive, Irish Springs, or XYZ Company.

In traditional distribution, consumers are SUCKED IN to participating in their distribution system by powerful, sometimes deceptive advertising on TV, newsprint, etc. Consumers are brainwashed into participating in their distribution system, obtaining products and giving the profits to teh companies which own the distribution system.

In network marketing, independent distributors advertise their business and attract consumers to consume products, create volume, and now, because they own part of the distribution system, start to get paid for the VOLUME they moved. Advetising in network maketing is more commonly known as recruiting by network marketing critics but don't traditional distribution entities, i.e., stores recruit you and I into coming in thier stores to consume.

Network marketing, which includes Amway, is no different than any other distribution process except that ordinary people now have an opportunity to benefit by participating in it.

Yes many do not make money at it but only as a result of their efforts or lack thereof. If a traditional store didn't advertise, how successful would they be?

Also, one last but major point. Shouldn't all the negative arguments about Amway be more appropriately be directed to some unprofessional, possibly, incorrectly trained, possibly selfish distributors rather than Amway itself!!!!!

The same can be said about colleges (for students that fail), medicine ( for bad doctors), Government (bad politicians), religion (bad religious), etc.

So what is it with all this heartburn!!!!!!!!!!!

Hello!

Just perusing the new response pages, and I found this:

"I am a happy AMWAY Distributor. It pleases me that you spend so much time and effort to maintain this page, because we must be being noticed. Only something that threatens the status quo and your comfort zone would dirve you to such obbsession. When the future unfolds there will only be three types of people:

1) The dreamers that are part of it
2) Those that envy those who dreamed
3) Those that wonder what happened

Sincerely,

A proud student of Yeager U. "

I see a few things: (1) People noticed Hitler, too. Not until too late. (2) Communism and religious extremism threaten my comfort zone, too. Are they valid philosophies? (3) It's "drive," not "dirve," and "obsession" with one "b" (the first is a simple typo, the second is being too damned lazy to run a spellchecker). (4) I submit a fourth type: Those who saw AMWAY and wisely ran like the dickens.

Finally, and perhaps most tellingly: "Yeager U." obviously doesn't teach well…Dexter's last name is spelled "Yager." :::snicker:::

Another response, if I may:

"If Amway diamonds are getting so rich off $6.00 tapes, how come a Nirvana tape costs $12.00? Who's getting rich off that? (I think they sold a few more tapes than Dexter did last year) Apparantly the music industry moguls have been brainwashing us and lying to us about what that item actually costs."

Here, I can speak from personal experience at ICCA…Dexter's tape-production house:

1. Nirvana tapes now cost $8.00-$10.00, just for the record.

2. I don't recall hearing ANY propaganda from the music industry regarding the actual cost of production. I KNOW what it costs to produce a Nirvana tape. It's the fact that Amheads LIE about the cost and the direction of the profits that bothers me.

3. The music industry spends millions to market its products worldwide. Dexter just coerces his downline to buy product. In addition, the music industry helps pay for tours, and foots the bill for a tremendous array of production people and equipment…all expensive. Dexter's tapes are produced by a crew of 3 or 4 people from ICCA, none paid (in my best estimation) over $40K per year. The production is ALL done in-house (unlike in the music business, where each artist uses their preferred studio), on an OLD board that has been rewired at least 3 times. Most production is still in the MANUAL stage (razor blades and splice tape), as opposed to the fully digital production common in "the industry."

4. Finally, and most interestingly for those of you who like to think that your Amway tapes are contributing to American jobs (and by this, I don't suggest that the music industry doesn't do the same thing…it's just a good point), ICCA AND INTERNET SERVICES PRODUCE THEIR AUDIO PRODUCT ON CHEAP MEXICAN TAPE. Cintas, to be precise.

Please don't include my name on this one. I'm just wary enough of Dexter in this town to not want my name getting around.

Thanks!

Dear Sir:

My wife, J and I, were in Amway for about 7 months, in which time we spent about $4500.00 on products, tapes, videos, and functions. At first we were gubg ho on the whole idea until we realized how much it was costing us to "become rich". We were supposed to go to Greg Duncan's Family Reunion in Portland, OR in July, but we decided not too. Our sponsered tried their best to "help" us find a way to get there. I feel that the reason is to get us to a mass "brain-washing" to keep us going until the next one. We held firm and applied for a refund. They were smart enough to press us for the money at the previous function. It has been two months and we have not seen our money back, despite Amway's Guarantee. We have sent another request and filed complaints with the States of Kansas, Oregon, and Washington.

I applaud your efforts in letting out the truth about the mass hysteria called Amway.

I have written you before and have sent some of my Amway tape to Ken Geil for inspection. I have one question, that you can help me with, hopefully. Is there a class action suit going on in any other part of the state, or is the Hanrahans lawsuit the only one? My husband and I lost every cent of our life savings and we were told (or not told, as the case may be)that, if we simply showed "the plan" @ least 15 times a month we would be successful in 2-5 years. My husband showed the plan for 25 - 30 times a month and all we did was lose our shirts. He did this without end for 2 years straight. We have struggled finanically ever since we got out of Amway, not only our savings was "blown", but also 4 credit cards max'd out. Thank you for you attention to this ongoing plight.

My twenty year marriage is on the rocks. Its AMWAY with you or with out you. A-cult is the death of our familly.

Mr. Scwartz:

Apology accepted for late reply; I've been hitting your site a few times a week for more stories and I'm glad to see you've added stuff. First-person accounts are always better reads than corporate disinformation, I've found.

My co-worker and carpool mate has tried to sell me chewing gum and regaled me with tales of his recent trip to L, a tiny speck in the Caribbean whose residents will soon hear about an "incredible opportunity."

I've learned to keep my mouth shut about consumer products. Case in point: I'm flying over to the west coast of Florida for a little vacation and noted to him that they don't sell chewing gum in the airport terminal at Palm Beach International Airport, as I discovered to my dismay when I flew to New York two years ago. "I'll sell you gum!" he said eagerly. I told him I could pick some up at the supermarket, and he snorted. That afternoon, on the way home from work, he handed me a stick of gum. I tried it and it was awful.

I feel sorry for my coworker mainly because he's always dead tired from being out until 2 or three in the morning at these meetings. Not only that, he's sometimes on call at work and if a computer or drive crashes at 3 or 4 a.m., he has to go deal with that, too. He often oversleeps.

It's funny that Amwayers call you angry, Sid, when their replies to even the existence of your site betray a rage that frightens me.

Again, keep up the great work and thanks for providing this forum.

What is going on with Haugen? Wouldn't all those other Diamonds be trying to say the same propoganda....just out of trying to criticize the competition or P & G products. Saw the lawsuit....but haven't seen anything from former Amway reps regarding how far down the stories went.

Great web page.

Dear Sir:

Thank you for the home page. I've been in the program for three months and after reviewing the "other side" of the picture, I've decided to get out. Not only am I ticked off by working two jobs (plan on marrying later in the year), but I feel my summer slipping by quick. However, I have one month to enjoy and make back some of the thousands I've put into the "company" or should I say upline. Thanks to your home page, however, I've been able to have my folks look at it with an objective eye as well. I guess it goes to show ya' - ONCE A SUCKER, ALWAYS A SUCKER.

Just Another Deception ---

When attending functions, whether it is a $5 Second Look Meeting or a $125 Family Reunion, all distributors are told to write their Direct's name on the check in case it bounces. The real reaon is to ensure that the proper line of sponsorship is paid "royalties" for the number of their downline attending.

When your upline tells you that the cost of a ticket is just to cover the cost of putting on the function, DO NOT BELIEVE THEM!

If all this baloney I'm reading on this web page about you can't make money with Amway is true…Then explain to me how an average Joe like myself with no people skills, no college education....get introduced to a fantastic and probally the largest organization "THE I.N.A Group" and fastest growing organization in Amway..(NOT DEXTER YAGER'S, NOT WORLDWIDE DREAM BUILDERS, NOT NETWORK 21,) A very professional group, that teaches you every thing to know with no quotas, forced meetings, no hype, become very successfull with this amway business. I really think you need to really check it out!!!!!..of course there will be lawsuits..all companies have lawuits (BIG DEAL)…explain to me why there's alot of people becoming financial free…that's a fact, in over 60 countries..that's a fact, they do make some of the best products…that's a fact (ASK Consumer Reports)....hey have growth a billion dollars in sales each year from the previous years approx. 5 years in a row. Are organization alone has over 38 diamonds…I still work but driving brand new 5 series BMW,…explain that to me....... I think that alot you people out there who are crying and wimping need to take a hard look at what's happening around you and grow-up (YOU CAN'T OUT RUN INFLATION) I'm also tried of reading everyone talking about the prices.....That's how the average non-goal thinking person would think…the smart person would know (For example) that if a family averaged approx. $300.00 in consumable product flowing thru their home each month.(You have to use toilet paper, the rest of your life…right) So once you're making $300.00 a month in your business..at that point that products become "FREE". How much cheaper can you get…wake up!.. grow up.....and get FREE .....Take care FROM HONOLULU> > > > > ALOHA>

Thanks for making the info available. You just saved me and my wife time money and self-respect. Keep it up.

You have entirely too much time on your hands, my friend. The company has only been around for 30 years. Iam a Pearl Direct Distributor, and probably make more in 1 month than you do in 1 year. Get a life.

I read with great interest your articles concerning the Amway Corporation. I was interested in the company because a distributor recently gave me the pitch, or, "drew the circles". I was hesistant at first to listen to his spiel, as I did not know what it was he planned to tell me. He started off weak, I warrant that to his inabilities as a Salesman. As he spoke I had an idea that it might be an Amway gig, but since they don't mention the company name until they are about 30 minutes into the rourine, I had to wait to hear the name. I was suprised when he told me he wanted to sponsor me since we had just met. I informed him that I would do some research of my own and get back to him. This being the decade of the Internet, I figured I would check out some web-sites first. I read alot of the inormation on your site, and like any good researcher, I delved deeper. I checked some pro sites, of which there are few, and spoke with friends and collegues, who else are you going to get interested? All the feedback I got was negative. I attributed much of this to the door-to-door reputation of the seventies. Then I got to thinking, why haven't they shed that yet? My answer was in the circles. Any company that avoids the mention of its own name in an attempt to attract new distributors must realize that they are weak. I phoned the man and told him that I was not interested in the business, and I would send him the materials he left me. He insited that my research was cursory and I should attend a meeting with a large attendence of "diamonds". I responded negatively and told him to expect his material in the next day or so. Two weeks after sending him the package I got a letter and yet another batch of the rambling audio tapes. His letter was both condescending and demeaning and I promptly through out his tapes. I got a call a few days later adn he asked if he could stop by to pick up the tapes, I told him he could, if he chose to go to the local dump and retrieve them. He became very rritated and told me I would have to pay for the tapes. I responded that I would do no such thing, since they were not asked for or wanted, I treated them as I do all my junk mail. He has since informed me that I will be going to small claims court so that he can atone his loss. I laughed outwardly and told him not to bother with the small claim, I am suing him in return for harassment. He promptly dropped his charge, but much to his chagrin, I have not. I will keep you posted on my law-suit. Thanks again for the great page. Sincerely My friend,

I read a little of your < thesis> re Amway. Boy, have you missed the entire picture.

Please refer to mid 1800's and the business landscape of the "wagon train". Please fast forward to the 90s and the year 2000. Obviously, you addressing a flaw in a particular person and not to the statistical group. Bad people ruin businesses. Bad people steal from banks, make shady real estate deals, harbor lousy work conditions for workers.

I like the Amway business. Been involve for almost three years. Tapes? Who cares? A traditional business has far more RISK to a business owner than $5.50 plu S+H. It seems to me that you would prefer tø lose $50,000 foolishly and than tø buy a tape or book. Did Dale Carnegie lie about his success? i thoroughly enjoyed that book and never would have read if not for the Amway business.

I'm glad that you put your information on the Net. For people with real business savvy, your information is humorous!

Our Lovely Demographics:

Male, Black, 35, Engineer, $80,000 (job income), born Miami, FL Female, Black, 31, 3D Animator, $75,000, born Los Angeles, CA 2 kids

Good Luck My Friend

You know it's people like you that give me a real bad taste in my mouth, you know the one. This is the third time I've been in Amway. But let me tell you a bit about the first two times. I got involved with a line that was obviously greedy and out to make a quick buck. The point here is that while almost buying some inventory I saw what possibilities were out there. It's not the company that twists things around it's people like yourself. This time I must say has been a liitle different. When people say they were coerced into buying something that's an absolute crock. Unless they had the unfortunate circumstance of running into one of the bad apples. All the tools of the business are optional but do help to understand more about the business. Just like in any other business there are expenses. But most people fail to look towards the future. It's a business just like any other except you make it what you want. And just like life there are no guarantees or promises. To end this in the first night lit pack there is a publication called The Amway Business Review (SA-4400) that if the morons that are complaining about this business would read they would get most of the important facts they need to know about the business. I've been in this time for over two years. While not making a substantial amount of money this business has been good to me.

Thank you so much for your brilliant web site.

I showed this to a close friend who's idiot husband got involved with Amway, despite her being deadset against it. I hope he remembers how rich he was going to become when he loses his house, his car, his job, and his family. He's already lost his dignity and his friends, although he's too stupid to realize it.

Amway or Whoreway.

You tell me.

one for your list.

amway can only be as good as its people want it to be . people have choices, the ones who blame others for their failures most likely wouldnt make it on their own anyway.

i stopped being with amway years ago because i found better opportinities in other areas where i was at the top of the chain and i also had more flexibility

the experience gained from amway was most helpful in this case as for what to do and what not to do.

if you dont like it leave, but just remember, even though the method is probably flawed, the concept is right on . good luck to all those for whom it works for, and try something different for the ones that it didnt,well it asnt for you , no matter what the upline tells you.

just think.....are loyalty cards any different???

Dear Mr. Schwartz:

This is in reply for your "response" page, if you feel that it would be of some help or has new information.

AMWAY IS *NOT* A CULT (then why do I feel like I just got our of one?)

To whom it may concern and to whoever may care:

I want to tell you about my experience with Internet Services Corporation and the Amway Corporation. More exactly, I would like to reply to many of the comments that I have been able to read via Mr. Schwartz's anti-Amway page.

ACCENTUATE THE POSITIVE

Please try to be patient with me as I am just starting to regain my own personality. In addition, I do not always make complete sense when I am really frustrated, as I sometimes get when people use false analogies and ridiculous logic to try and prove a point. However, before I start, I do want to remind everyone that the majority of people who have tried to "scam" you into the business believe in what they are doing and believe that they are doing it in a moral way. Many also believe that they are doing you a big favor, and that this might be your only opportunity to get rich.

This was not presented to me as a get rich quick scheme, whatever that may be. What has been said to me over and over again is that 1) this is a numbers game and if you approach enough people, you *will* be successful and that 2) anyone can be a direct 60 to 90 days after then "make the decision".

Many people ask "So what if your upline makes a profit off of the tools?" There are two principle challenges that I personally have with this (I still NEVER use the word "problem". Self-defeating.). First, I was never told about this. Everyone else who writes in seems to think that anyone with any sense whatsoever would have to know this. I never really thought about it, but had I been asked, I would have said (incorrectly) that of COURSE the guys on top are not making money off of the tools. That would be unethical. The reason I would have thought that is (Second) that it is said during the plan that the prices for products do not go up from distributor to distributor as it goes down line because "we don't make money off of each other." As one Emerald puts it, “How can you go up to a friend and say, ‘Quick get in so I can make some money off of you’?” In my opinion, the logical assumption is --if it’s wrong to make money off of my friends on the products, it is wrong to make money off of my friends on the tools, or in fact, in any way.--

[Can I tell you how guilty I feel even having negative thoughts?]

People involved in the business are *very* positive. . . about the business. God help you if you have a job. Speakers will say "I don't knock jobs . . . I just don't want to have to be the one working them and you don't have to either." Is this a terrible thing to say? No, of course not. Listen to the tapes, though, and you will find that the overwhelming feeling is that people who have jobs are losers. It is amazing to me this simple trick that I learned in the business: All you have to do for people not to be offended by what you are doing is to tell them that you aren’t doing it. For example: “Woman have an equal part in this business. I couldn’t have done this without my wife. She can do anything I do in the business. The great part about this business is that if I were to die, she could take over.” Later, the same man will tell you that his wife handles the orders and the products and “anything with two heads is a monster so there can only be one head of the family and it should be the man”. Any time a prospect will say that he has to check with his wife, I have been told that a good reply is “Well, it is obvious who wears the pants in this family, maybe I should just be talking to her.” My diamond is fond of saying “You have to see if the guys pants zip in the front or on the side.”

The question of the hour seems to be: What is/was my involvement and how many plans did I show a month? This is an interesting question. I am a single woman and for all of you who are or have been involved, you can imagine how difficult that was for me. My upline treated me like I would have to do until I got married. This was only implied. I have to tell you that my upline was very nice to me. In fact, my sponsor had been my best friend for years before I had ever heard of Amway. Needless to say, I don't hear from anyone now. I always found the plan question off putting. The implication is that if you don't show the plan, you are not doing anything at all with the business. This is not exactly true, although this will be the best measure of success. I think that a question that will give a more accurate measure of participation is how many one prospected in a week or a month. My city may just be an odd city. I was prospecting all the time. All the time. There was almost no day that I would come home without at least one name for my list. In fact, I was followed off of the subway one day by some guy because I had struck up a conversation with him. And I am pretty good. I can find out a lot of information from just about anyone. (as an answer to the person who asked if we are looking for anything in particular, the answer is yes. If you notice, anyone prospecting you, if they do it correctly, will compliment you. Something about the clothes you are wearing or your car or your hair. This can be found in "How to Win Friends and Influence People" by Dale Carnegie. If I give you a compliment, you will give me your time. They will also lead the conversation towards Family, Occupation, Recreation, and/or Money. This is known as FORM. It comes from one of the old tapes.) I did not do as many plans as some might expect from all of this prospecting. Eventually, I could dismiss the rejection, because it was just coming from a bunch of losers who really didn't know any better. Their loss. I would laugh when I retired. (I used to think this.) Some of my personal challenges had to do with age. Not only am I young, but I look even younger. I was told to either use the curiosity approach or play the dumb young female (do you think that you could check this out for me? -bat of eyelashes-) I almost never did the plan myself because a man backed by a woman has a *lot* more credibility that a woman talking business. That is what I was told and, sadly that is common sense for our society.

For all of you who ask the beleagered Mr. Schwartz "Well, what do you have to give me instead" or "Well look at how much people going into traditional businesses spend", I believe you are missing the point. I got involved in the business (I still have trouble coming out and actually saying the A-word, as it's affectionately referred to by some) because it was offered as an inexpensive business alternative to traditional businesses. I did not decide to do this instead of opening a restaurant and I don’t believe that it is offered as an alternative to that. To say "Hand me something better or shut up" is, in my opinion, missing the boat. I was told that for less than two hundred dollars, I could create a multi-million dollar empire. Unrealistic, perhaps. I am just reporting what I was told, by someone who was a direct. At the open meetings, the person who usually did it will say that the investment can run you maybe a thousand dollars the first year. Had I been initially told this, there is no way I would ever have joined. I was a student living off of 240 US dollars a month (not including rent). Be that as it may. The last meeting I went to (and this really cemented my decision for me), my upline diamond, very big in the business, very wealthy, actually said, that it costs about two hundred or so dollars to get legally involved in the business. I hate to use inflammatory language, but this is a lie. When I joined, the cost was 125.00, not including tax. The reason that he said this is because, at the monthly rallies, he had really been pushing the Tool Box which is full of essential things needed to really get your business started. If he had not said legally, then he could have been able to pass it off as a half truth, but for an organization that is so vocal about it's own honesty, there is not excuse, even if had only been that.

I find it a little strange that for everyone writing in, no one seems to have mentioned (so far, I have not read all) what seems to be the ulterior motive of Internet. Perhaps I have been the only person who has noticed this, but Amway (and I am using the word "Amway" to refer to all events and things that happened to me that had to do anything with the business, be it internet or Amway) seems to be a fundamentalist Christian, republican only party. Are there those that are not of this ilk? Of course, but they are few and far between. All major functions are started off with a prayer in the name of the father and the son. Many business meetings and counseling sessions deteriorate into bible study. My diamond got up at family reunion and told everyone that they needed to be at the Sunday church service the next day. "You need to be there! You can not be a successful person or have a successful life if you do not go! You need to be there!" This was, of course, at around 2 in the morning. The vast majority of the diamonds who I have personally heard speak "became Christian" after they got into the business. After signing up for book of the month (which is a misnomer since books only actually come every two months or so), I was chagrined to find out that none of them were without Christian content. None of my upline thought to tell me about this, although all of them know that I am not Christian. (Incidentally, I found that trying to get off of standing order programs is a very involved, long process. I called my direct and she tried to talk me out of it. Then she had me talk to my emerald who also tried to talk me out of it. After I was politely clear that I was simply not going to be talked out of it, I called back my direct to give her the message that it was okay with my emerald that I could go off of standing order. Two *months* later, I got another book and my sponsor told me "I am sure that X told you that it takes awhile to get off of the program". I paid for the book, because why should my sponsor take the hit, but I informed her that I had a copy of my standing order tape contract that explicitly states in writing that only two weeks notice needs to be given, even though my direct, after I inquired had said, "well, you know, it takes, a long time time to get off of tape of the week, like five or six weeks are so." I was not very happy about this.) I would like to find out if that was only in the leg I was in or if everyone is experiencing this.

You know what the worst part about this is? I thought that there was something really wrong with me. I was spending all my extra money (and money I didn't really have) and all of my extra time on this. If you ask, ten hours a week means five meetings. It does not count driving time, although people are strongly encouraged to have out of town groups. It does not include time prospecting, or time on the phone. Heck, just listening to tapes and reading books put me up to at least five hours a week. I have never attended a full open meeting that took less than three hours of my time. Attending open meeting proved your loyalty to your business and your upline. (If it is my business, why do I have to prove my loyalty?) I went to almost every single open meeting for over a year. I went to every single monthly seminar and rally. Family Reunion. Winter Conference. Free Enterprise. I listened to a tape every single day (I was told that I should say 15 min/day so as not to scare anyone off, but that if I was really serious, I would have to listen to at least one tape a day). I read from books at *least* fifteen minutes a day, underlining as I went along, as instructed by upline. I counseled any chance I got. I bought all the things I could afford, and some stuff that I couldn't. The only thing that I didn't do was Weekend of the Diamonds because it was held on the day that I graduated college.

I am aware that all diamonds are laughing because I actually admitted that I spent money to get a higher education. Ha ha. I have news for you. I spent money to get a higher education. According to most people I have spoken to in the business, I may be the only person to do this. According to most people in the business, everyone else goes to school so that they could get a good job at the end of four years. Not me. In spite of their claims, most big people in the business do knock going to college. They say it doesn't make sense. Many of these people don’t seem to have gone to college. I find it interesting that I was instructed to tell prospects not to take advice from their family and friends about the business unless they were succcessfully doing the business (would you ask someone who had dropped out of medical school to be your doctor was the analogy), but was expected to take advice from someone who had make money in the business on schooling and, in fact, pretty much everything else. I have heard many high level pins (emerald and above) say, "Now don't get me wrong, I am not knocking education. I think it is important" and will proceed to trash education, institutions of learning, and people who go to them. If you ask about this, be prepared for a denial, just as if you were to ask about knocking jobs.

There is just so much more, but I cannot begin to put it all down. The concept of heroes here is just so strange. The fact that a person is lauded as a hero because he makes millions of dollars is foreign to me, but you will hear it monthly at least, if you go to functions.

The question is not “Did anything good come out of it?” There are a few exceptions, most likely, but even the worst of experiences holds kernels of good. Experience, as they say, is a great teacher, teaching good and bad. This program (“the system”) is a great way to learn how to deal with rejection. (Try going up to someone and saying that you are an Amway distributor and you want to talk with them. :) No one who is in the business would ever actually do this, but try it and you will know what rejection is like. Now try doing it every day, several times a day over an extended period of time. After this, you can handle anything.) Many of the books that are on the tools list were very informative. I learned new things, which is always important. An emphasis is placed on dealing with people and speaking so that people will want to talk to you. I am much better at putting on make-up and pay a lot more attention to skin care (make-up and skin care products can be a big source of revenue so it makes sense that one knows how to put it on and is up to date on the changes in the industry, Alpha-Hydroxy or what have you). So, yes, good can come out of this, the same as how good can come out of a bad relationship or a class at school that was otherwise a waste of time. That doesn’t mean that the system is good, ethical, or moral.

Just as an addendum, I found something odd. While I was in the business, I was once approached (prospected, if you will) by someone who was in a cult. It was something called FOCUS or something like that. I was very surprised (at the time) at how similar his methods were to mine. (Oddly, we had been mutually prospecting one another.)

Well, this is very long, so I will end it. I feel a lot better writing it and yes, I did not send it right away, but waited so that I could reread it at a later date to make sure that it was all correct and not just written in the heat of the moment. (Does anyone remember which book that came out of? I was never good at chapter and versing. It is one of them.) Many of the experiences are duplicated. I have had many of them. Good luck to all of you out there. I do not advocate not taking responsiblitity for one’s actions, so for those of you who need to know this: You are not alone.

Dear Mr. Schwartz,

I would like to begin by saying thank you for the web page and the posting of all comments-negative AND positive. I have been an inactive (or should I say "recovering") distributor for 8 months now. I won't go into detail about all my experiences, but I can say that honestly, most people that get into the business give it a fair shake, and the stories are true. People get into the business because they want it to work, they don't want to believe they won't get wealthy until they are faced with the cold hard facts. I know, I believed for a long time I would be Diamond in 2-5 years.

I was stunned at the statistics of actually making it to the Direct, Emerald, and Diamond levels. After seeing these statistics, I no longer feel like a failure. I was an active distributor-very active, attending all business and social upline functions, listening to several tapes a day, reading books, showing the plan, and making MANY contacts. After 2 1/2 years and after contacting about 175 people or couples, I had personally sponsored 2 people(one was my fiancee), and my group had grown to a whopping 7 people. It seems to me that the people defending Amway are the king and queen of one-liners. They always have an answer for everything, as I was taught also. Yes, there are some good things about the business, and I believe it can make you money, but I was pressured into buying too many tools, as many others were also, and that is where you start losing money. I can still remember some of the comments from my sponsors like "You don't have enough tapes until you have at least one of each." People that are familiar with the Yager system know that there are more than enough tapes to listen to in a lifetime from Internet Services Corp. The tool scam IS very real. Dexter Yager could clean up his act if he bought back wrapped tools at full price, and used tools at a discount.

Over the 2 1/2 years I was in the business, I managed to purchase about $10,000 worth of tools. I was definitely pressured into purchasing more and more tools. I was told I had to have at least 50 contacting tapes in stock for that new excited person that wanted to buy 50 tapes rigt away. I was also told to keep extra tools in stock because we were a long distance leg (our upline was 800 miles away) and it took about a month to receive your tools after you ordered them. There was pressure to be on the 2 tape a week program, and tapes were being promoted constantly on Amvox. Also, my sponsor would once in a while put tools on my tool bill at product pick up because she thought "I needed them". Well, after years of frustration, I wanted to go inactive. I talked to my upline about this, and they responded that "I was having a brain fart", and "get with the program", and that I was stealing people's dream by quitting. I later mentioned that I would like to unload some of my tools, and was wondering if thay would be interested in buying some of them back. I got a cold response saying that they would discuss it with their upline. About 5 weeks later, they said they would give me $750 in 3 payments of $250 for the tools that I paid $3700(not including tax and handling) which were all new and still wrapped in plastic. I was told you are not supposed to make a profit on tools. With $3700 in tapes @ $5.00/tape = 740 tapes. They were willing to pay me $750 for 740 tapes which comes out to $1.01 a tape! I am expected to believe that my upline (which are directs by the way) is going to have a separate pile of brand new wrapped tapes at a $1.01 a piece, and another pile of identical wrapped tapes at the going rate of $5.00 for sale at their tool table. My upline directs have sold tapes as cheap as 3 for $5.00 for old S.O.T's and old unwrapped beatup tapes, but never $1.01 for new tapes! By the way, they were counseled to offer me that amount by the 3rd Emerald which has two or three diamond couples under them.

As far as the brainwashing goes, I can only speak of the Yager system, because that is the only system I am familiar with. The Yager system in one word is INTOLERANT. Dexter Yager in his speeches does not talk about building the business, he talks about his own personal opinions which are offensive in nature, and his political views. He talks about gays being evil, pro-choice people being murderers, and in so many words says women are only good for one thing-to support their man. It is frightening, because he has the ability to manipulte hundreds of thousands of people. On stage he uses terms like "pollock", and "faggot" he may be kidding, but it is still in bad taste. For those that don't believe that brainwashing takes place, I have a question, "Have you ever attended a Men's Leadership?" A very good example of the intolerance for women's rights is the book available from Internet called "Man Of Steel and Velvet." That book just about sums up the attitude towards women in the business. By the way, just to give you a taste of what is said at the Men's Leadership here it is: Women are put on this earth to give birth. The man is the head of the household and women should not be allowed to make money. The man needs to be the provider so he can feel like a man. If a woman works outside the home, she is taking away his manliness and there is a big possibility that she will cheat on her husband with her boss because he is a man in charge, and her husband is now less than a man. Women should not be doctors or dentists or attorneys or any type of professional. These spots should be reserved for men only.... WHEN I READ THIS BOOK I WAS SHOCKED THAT A BOOK LIKE THIS WAS AVAILABLE IN A SO-CALLED BUSINESS. DEXTER YAGER'S LEG IS NO BUSINESS, IT IS A CULT!!!!!!! This is coming from a person that believed wholeheartedly in the business.

As far as people in the business loving you, that is a lie. At a major function 1000 miles away, we were staying with our upline one of the evenings, and the second evening we needed to get a room of our own because our upline had plans to leave that evening, and not stay another night. My fiancee and I had plenty of room on one of our credit cards(we checked it before we left for the weekend), and so I didn't bother taking ALL of mine, I just took a Visa. When the second day came around and we went to pay for a room, the card was declined. We called the credit card company and they couldn't give us an answer until Monday. I called on my credit card to see if they could up my limit by $50.00 so I could pay for a room(my card was to the max from all the functions and plane tickets etc.) and I was told no. My fiancee then told our sponsor our predicament. A crossline couple offered for us to stay in their room for the night and my sponsor(the wife) said no because it was considered crosslining!

We had no place to stay for the night - 1000 miles away from home and we had been faithfully going to functions, buying tools and products and always paying on time, and we had a problem and all she could say was "These things always have a way of working themselves out". Our sponsor did not care that we had no place to stay, nor would they let us stay with anyone else. Finally our sponsor(the husband) realized the seriousness of our predicament and agreed to help us. He paid for a room for us, which we promply paid back. Be careful because many people in the business only love you for what you can do for them.

I also believe in credit where credit is due. My third upline directs which live in Houston are terriffic people. They never lied or deceived me in any way, they have always tried to help me with questions and problems with my personal and business life. They have always cared about me and my feelings. When I told them I wanted to inactive, they supported me and told me that I should come back to the business when I am ready. I care for this couple, and I believe that many people in the business from Emerald to Diamonds could learn from their honesty, unselfishness, care for others, and respect for ALL people regardless of their race, sex, religion, political beliefs, and sexual preference. The Amway business would be a better business if it just cleaned house and stop manipulating people and crushing their dreams.

I welcome any comments and suggestions.

Sidney,

Well a couple of years ago my supervisor tried to get me into Amway, he talked of how I could make $10,000 an month, and be able to retire in 3 years. Well at the time I had just started investing in the stock market and told him that I made my own investment decisions, so I spent most of my time researching stocks. ( Actually I could have had time to do Amway, I just said that to get him off my back)

Basically, after reading your articles I see the same things happening to him, his desk is stacked with the Amway tapes and books and he's gotten himself in to debt, he was renting a house now he moved in an apartment (With in this time I was able to buy a house ). Recently he tried again to get me into Amway, I ask what his last bonus check was, he said $65 that month I told him the value of my stocks went up over $1000 that week, end of conversation!

Dear Sidney,

I am legaly an Amway distributor only because I had to renew to get a $500.00 plus product return. I'v signed up 5 differant times in Amway well 6 if you count the forced renewal, but I have to say that the 4th and the 5th time were the worst especaily the 5th, because I felt these people I was associated with were trully my freinds and then they slap me in the face and all I could think about is a book they recommened I read "How to win friend and influence people" chapter 1, in my opion the book that taught me how wrong I was and how I should treat people. well sidney I hope I did'nt take up to much of your time. hope to talk more.

I started reading the responses part 1 and was wondering if the pissed off slam dunking donut I mean diamond, pardon my french is using the curiosity aproach because he did'nt have enough guts to leave his

name.. "AIN'T IT GREAT"

Oh by the way the***Successful businessman and Amway distributor/father It' true what they say in Amway "You don't know what you don't know". It's Unfortunate that he's been blinded by the lights and wrape up like a DUNCE.

You know Sidney they talk about developing friendships in this business, and I want to tell to you about a friendship I had before Amway and after Amway. You see Sidney true friendship will be there no matter what. I have a friend I showed the Amway plan to, in fact my direct distributor came down and showed the plan that nite, and afterwards my friend said this is'nt for him, but we always remained friends even though I was working very hard to build this buisness and saw very little of my friend and his family and knew born son. I remember when I first started talking to the uplines about getting in there business, it took me about 2 or 3 months before I decided to get in, but I remember how they would always come around and now that I've made a decision to leave Amway completly and never to return, that's a promise.

My uplines don't come around or call to say hi, but my friend still does, I know now who my true friends really are and I'm sad to say this happened in the last group I was in. To all Amway distributors that have a problem with all the negative on this web page I'd like to put a challange to you

< < < < < < SW..SW..SW..> > > > > >

< Some Will..Some Won't..So What..

Do what you've been taught, disassociate yourself from the negetive if you can. The suit from the 1979 FTC ( Docket No. ) case tells of the heavy turnover rate in Amway and when I went to my second F.E.D. I was so surprised to see the hand of the new people that have gotten in, I said to myself what happened to the other half that were here last year. talk about a high turnover.

Touching on the subject of BRAINWASHING someone doesn't know there being brainwashed untill something drasticly happens that wakes them up and right away will notice that something is defiently wrong but becuase of the empowering effect of the brainwashing it may be hard for some to break free, but it can be done I know I was brainwash into beleiving that this is the way life and business should be. Sidney like I said you have a great web page and I hope to express more of the facts that I have experienced, I promise you no lies....

Amway: The Untold Story

Your Comments, Part 13